Pavel Selin. - And another outcome was possible

#RFRM Help: Pavel Selin is a Russian journalist and TV presenter. In television journalism since 1992. In 2001 - 2003 he worked as a correspondent and director of the NTV representative office in Belarus. In June 2003, he was deported from the country by personal order of President Lukashenko for reporting on the funeral of the writer Vasil Bykov.Pavel actively covered the events in Belarus in the NTV programs “Central Television”, “Last Word”, “The Other Day”, “Maximum Program”. After leaving NTV in 2012, he collaborated with RTVI, Dozhd, RBC and taught the basics of television skills in Russia, Kazakhstan, Kir gyzia, Ukraine and Belarus.

- Belarus has been a "scarecrow" for quite a long time» for Russians- both in the 1990s and early 2000s: the director of a state farm at the head of the country, repressions, disappearances of politicians and journalists. IN modern Russia don't you get the feeling that you went back to 2001-2003, when you worked in Minsk at the dawn of the Lukashenka era?

- On June 29, 2003, when I was deported from Belarus on Lukashenko’s personal order, a remarkable story happened ... On the first day after the deportation, I had a broadcast on the Ekho Moskvy radio, where I was asked to tell the details of the deportation. And on the evening of June 29, there was a party of the program "The Other Day" by Leonid Parfyonov.

Film crews of NTV and TV6 in front of the KGB headquarters: Konstantin Morozov, Pavel Selin, Maria Malinovskaya and Vladimir Andronov

I worked very closely with them then, and it so happened that my arrival in Moscow after deportation coincided to the same day with a party that was dedicated to the closing of the 2003 season, the program went on summer vacation. By that time, I was already a regular contributor and made for Namedni every month from one to three stories from Poland, the Baltic states and Belarus. So, of course, I was invited. At this party, a not very pleasant and not very beautiful scene took place.

I practically quarreled with several of my colleagues, NTV journalists, trying to prove to them that it would be exactly the same in Moscow as in Minsk.

We had a very tough conversation. I was told that this is impossible, no matter what Putin is. I told you that there are all the prerequisites for everything in Russia to be exactly the way it happened in your country. We quarreled to the nines, but, unfortunately, I was right. You can say that I croaked ... But even then I had a strong feeling that everything that happened in Belarus since the mid-1990s was a training ground for Russia. I have such a version.

- Conspiracy?

No, no, no conspiracy theories. Everything is proven by time. time and specific events. I have such a theory, and for myself I call it the Russian-Belarusian time loop: everything that happens in Minsk, sooner or later happens in Moscow.

As a news correspondent for NTV in Minsk, Pavel also made stories for Namedni. Nikolai Kartozia, the then editor-in-chief of Namedni, the creator and head of Pyatnitsa (and now the president of ProfMedia-TV) is sitting next to Parfyonov in this frame.

— It's no secret that even after the collapse of the USSR and the restoration of Belarusian independence, many Russians (including those in a democratic and liberal environment) still treat Belarus as a small Russian colony.

- Unfortunately yes. Liberal people who think, think, know history, of course, do not have such chauvinistic thoughts. But a huge number of people, to a greater or lesser extent, have the following thoughts: Lukashenka is completely dependent on Putin, Russia feeds Belarus, Russia has every right to place its military bases in you and other blah blah blah in the form of "patriotic" theses about the “Russian-Belarusian union”, “younger brothers” and “Belarus is the last buffer before NATO”.

- And how has the attitude towards Belarus changed after the start of the Russian war against Ukraine?

“I don't think there has been much of a change. No one in Russia shouted or said that Belarus was next in line. There was no such thing. Understand that even in the liberal part Russian society there is no consensus on many issues. If you ask people at opposition rallies “whose Crimea is?”, not everyone will answer that it is Ukrainian. A huge number of people will answer that Crimea is only Russian.

— But the answer to the question “Whose Crimea?» over the past 4 years has acquired, without undue pathos, the meaning of an existential marker both in our country and in your country. How would you answer this question?

Pavel Selin and candidate for the presidency of Belarus Semyon Domash on Skaryna Avenue in Minsk. year 2001

- I will answer that Crimea is Ukrainian. He is Ukrainian by historical justice, but now he is de facto Russian. The Ukrainian topic is generally very painful, not only for fervent patriots, but also for a serious part of the liberal society in Russia. After the start of the war with Ukraine, tension appeared in relation to Belarus in the Russian elites, including the jingoistic elites. It's not strong, but it's there.

The "Patriots" believed that the next "Euromaidan" could happen in Minsk.

And this idea became popular, of course, not without the help of our dear main ally Alexander Grigorievich, who very diligently inspired everyone that there are Belarusian militants in your country who set up camps on the territory of Belarus and allegedly train to make a “color revolution”.

- You, of course, understand that the "cause of patriots",mystical terrorist camps, a fake breakthrough of the Belarusian border from the Ukrainian side-lies?

Yes, it's all fake, of course. These are stories that play into the hands of Lukashenka. His inquisitive mind ... or rather inquisitive - in quotation marks - the "mind" of his not very talented propagandists did not come up with anything smarter. The message about the militants was rather clumsily warmed up.

After all, everyone is well aware that there can be no serious camps for the training of Belarusian militants, and even more so on the territory of Belarus.

And certainly no “color revolution” through a popular uprising in Belarus should be expected in the near future. I may be wrong, but it seems to me that under such a cruel, authoritarian, dictatorial rule, such events are impossible in your country - unlike Ukraine.

- In 2003, in an interview with Czech television journalist Maryan Gluk, you said that Lukashenka would last five years. Then it sounded not like a sentence to Lukashenka, but like a warning that this person sets himself long-term prospects and will not voluntarily leave the presidency. How does he manage to stay in power for 23 years?

- It seems to me that his secret is in the bestial sense of power, in the ability to clear the territory around him and destroy any danger to his power. Lukashenka knows how to raise around him those who will never encroach on his power in their lives. He had very good teacher- Joseph Vissarionovich Stalin. I think that Lukashenka learned a lot from Stalin. It seems so to me.

Frame from the plot from Bykov's funeral, for which Pavel Selin was deported from Belarus

“Be that as it may, we are all getting old. And one day you have to leave not by the will of the people, but by the call of eternity. How will events develop if the president dies without leaving a political successor?

- I think that this is one of the biggest problems for Lukashenka: who to leave instead of himself, so that he is not put behind bars or made a bargaining chip in other people's games. It's a huge question for him and I think he doesn't trust anyone at all.

- Why? It seems to me that Kolya Lukashenko is quite a trustworthy young man.

“No, he doesn't even trust his sons. The most obvious path for him is North Korean: inheritance through family ties. But still, Belarus is not North Korea yet. Or is it already?

“Fortunately, not yet. You can see that we can safely carry on this conversation and even publish it.

- We will definitely see how Lukashenka will get out of the problem of finding a successor. I think that the problem of succession to the throne and the problem of the heir is always the biggest needle in the feather bed of every feudal regime.

— Recently, in an interview with #RFRM, Frantisek Vyachorka said something like this: “There will be no politics in Belarus until applicants for the status of politicians learn to clearly articulate their ideas» . Franak named your friend, playwright Nikolai Khalezin, as one of the potential politicians among Belarusians. Do you think Khalezin has a chance to find his niche in Belarusian politics?

- Wow, that's a tough question. I think that first you need to ask yourself another question: will Nikolai himself want to do this. I don't know how much he needs it. Of course, Vaclav Havel also did not suspect that one day he would become the first president of the Czech Republic ... But I think that it is necessary to ask Kolya Khalezin whether he wants to change his occupation and become a fiery tribune. Because theater and politics are, after all, different spheres. But in general, you really discouraged me with your question ...

- US President Ronald Reagan was an actor before starting his political career ...

- I agree, but Vaclav Havel, for example, had already turned into a politician by the time he became president. He was no longer "just a playwright".

I think that now you and I, unfortunately, are only guessing who could become who in Belarus if there were equal opportunities for everyone in your country.

I would only wish all of us that there will be a time when equal opportunities for all can be opened in your country.

I would like the prerequisites to be formed for Khalezin, Sannikov, Vyachorka, anyone! - could apply for the role of president. And when everything in Belarus is scorched, hunted down, concreted and rolled up in asphalt, offering one's candidacy for the presidential election is the same as throwing yourself into an embrasure with grenades tied around it. It turns out beautifully, but not for long.

— But is Belarus Free Theater-isn't that politics? It's in pure form art?

— No, this, of course, is not art in its purest form. This is contemporary art - and it cannot do without politics, by definition it cannot be far from relevance. Politics is a part of reality, it is a part of our actual world. And the actual theater cannot exist in isolation from reality. Therefore, Belarus Free Theater is, among other things, a political theater. But it is not only political. The word "political" is too narrow in meaning in this case.

For Kolya Khalezin and his theatre, the social dimension is very important. They deal with the stories of refugees, the stories of prison and extra-prison executions, including in Belarus. This is politics, and not quite politics - this is life, and everything is very mixed in it. Life, in short, the theater of Kolya and Natasha, which I am fantastically, incredibly happy about.

I remember the times when no one knew about the Belarusian Free Theatre, and it didn't even exist back then. And I remember how Kolya sent me one of the first scripts in the early 2000s and asked for a review. I, of course, as a person poorly versed in drama, no classic parsing I couldn’t do it then (and I can’t do it now either), but I really liked it! Kolya was a completely insecure playwright when it all began.

Now just imagine how much work Khalezin and his team have done to create that awesome world-class thing that Belarus Free Theater has become by 2017.

I think that Belarus Free Theater is one of the main Belarusian brands in the world. What pops up in the memory of foreigners? Negative brand "the last dictator" of Europe. You don’t even have to give a last name, people still know who they are talking about ...

- But after all, "dictators» Europe already has at least two. Moreover, Vladimir Vladimirovich is already head and shoulders above Alexander Grigorievich in this category.

- Russia is still Eurasia, half the country lives beyond the Urals. But if we return to brands, then since I told you about the anti-brand of Belarus, I can also say that among the positive brands abroad, most likely, the Belarusian Free Theater and Charter-97 will be named. Both there and there people are insanely dear to me. I don’t know if it’s worth talking about the fact that a cat has recently run between them, but I hope that everything will be fine. Still, I love one and the other.

— I understand your position on Khalezin. Nikolai is a representative of a generation that already in the 1990s was “on the wave of» . What have you heard about young leaders, for example, about Zmitser Dashkevich? Is it generally known in Russia?

- Basically, I follow what he does through posts on Facebook. He is a desperate, fighting guy. Unfortunately, I don’t personally know him, but the way he behaved during all the numerous arrests and imprisonments evokes only positive emotions in me. I want to wish him strength and health. I like such a leader of the Young Front.

But don't be fooled. Unfortunately, in Russia very few people are interested in political life Belarus.

I think that only three types of people in Russia are interested in it: a small group of right-wing liberals, the administration of the President of Russia and the FSB, who are interested in knowing what is happening with their closest ally.

- I think that I will not surprise you if I say that very few people are interested in the internal political life of Belarus, even in Belarus itself.

- There is nothing surprising in this. As I said, you have a scorched field in your country, rolled up with an asphalt rink. It's very hard to get through this. But a green sprout always breaks through the asphalt, there are always desperate people - just like your desperate Dashkevich.

Remember the dissident experience Soviet Union. I was fortunate enough to personally meet some Soviet dissidents. I shot a long portrait essay about an absolutely wonderful hero, Vladimir Georgievich Bukovsky. This is a famous Soviet dissident, who was exchanged in 1976 for the leader of the Chilean communists, they also said about Bukovsky "they exchanged a hooligan for Luis Corvalan." I was filming an essay about Eduard Kuznetsov, who, with his comrades, obtained permission for Soviet Jews to emigrate from the USSR.

Comrade Corvalan at the 26th Congress of the CPSU. In the USSR, he was so loved that a plan was created to free Comrade Lucho from prison in Chile with the help of KGB special forces.

Kuznetsov was able to break out of the Soviet Union by stealing the "corncob" of the first secretary of the Leningrad regional party committee. For this “aircraft case”, by the way, he was sentenced to death in the USSR. Kuznetsov demanded that Jews begin to be released from the USSR to Israel - and achieved this. So nothing is impossible. Unfortunately, in such cruel conditions, people must decide their fate at the cost of life and death.

When a person is ready to risk his life in the fight against a hundred-headed dragon up to the sky - then a small person is able to defeat the state, as David defeated Goliath.

The question "will the green sprout of freedom break through the asphalt?" torments me in relation to my own country, Russia. I am either an optimist or a pessimist, depending on the weather. Of course, I would like to hope for some changes. On the other hand, it is very depressing when I see that the vast majority of people in my country simply do not care what happens to her. No need to be active or go to rallies, God bless them. But it is precisely this indifference that is the main breeding ground for the madness that occurs in our countries.

- Maybe the fact is that in both countries there is a request for similar politicians? Alexander Grigorievich was very popular in Russia in the first two or three terms, wasn't he?

- Yes, there was a possibility that Lukashenka would become vice president first, and then president instead of Yeltsin's grandfather.

- Does he now have a chance to take the place of Vladimir Putin?

No, he doesn't stand a chance. No one. It is my deep conviction, based on what I hear in political and journalistic circles, that this is out of the question. As they say, there is a very serious internal tension between Lukashenka and Putin.

Putin has, at least, a very big dislike towards Lukashenka.

I don’t know if Lukashenka has it for Putin. Of course, there is no talk of any love and mutual reverent friendship between the Belarusian and Russian leaders now - unlike the times of Yeltsin. What we see now is the forced coexistence of two allies in a hostile environment.

- And what are the roots of Putin's hostility to the President of Belarus?

- It seems to me that the fact is that once Boris Nikolayevich (with my great respect for him for many things - which, however, does not negate my huge claims against him) was looking for a political "son", a successor. Maybe in the mid-1990s there was a short period when Lukashenka could become such a “son”, a pupil of Yeltsin.

Later, Yeltsin had a paternal eye on Bora Nemtsov and, finally, on Putin. It has always been a fatherly attitude. I think that is why the current leaders of Belarus and Russia do not have friendly or fraternal relations - and after all, Lukashenka and Putin are about the same age. At least that's how it looks from the outside.

- Now it is even hard to believe that until recently in Eastern European politics there was a “holy trinity» - Yeltsin, Lukashenko and Kuchma. Such is God the father, God the son and the holy spirit ...

— And in the role of the holy spirit was the spirit of the communist past!

- And who now acts as a father in Putin-Lukashenko relations?

- As I said, between Putin and Lukashenko there is no such father-son relationship as the Belarusian president had with Yeltsin. Putin and Lukashenko have cousin relations. The older cousin does not really like the younger one - he does not have a very good past and not very good reputation present.

- And who is the older brother in this relationship?

Putin, of course. This is absolutely understandable and can be seen in their relationship.

- We are witnessing one of the episodes of these relations these days: the transfer of the Russian army to the territory of Belarus began in connection with the upcoming exercises "West-2017 » . Because of this, panic is widespread in Belarus.- as if Russian army will remain in Belarus after the end of the exercises. How possible do you think such a scenario is?

- Everything is possible. The world is already living in a state of "cold", if you like, hybrid war. bison international politics have already turned to Putin and Trump with a statement that since the existence of the USSR, Russia has never had such cold relations with the West. There seems to be no "Iron Curtain", but all its signs are obvious - sanctions, propaganda, counter-propaganda. Everything is as before. So now nothing can be ruled out.

- And Putin is really ready to build an "iron curtain"» ? Is he ready to completely ban Western media in Russia?

— I don't think that Putin himself is ready for this, and I don't know for sure. But judging by what has been happening lately on the Duma stage in Russian Federation, then I can say that these people are definitely ready for such a development of events. Our wonderful deputies are constantly probing the ground on this issue.

The intentions of the deputies in the Duma have already been indicated: they are actively cleaning up the Internet space wherever they can reach.

As far as I can tell, the Russian parliament is preparing to adopt a serious concept of confronting foreign media. First of all, Radio Liberty, Voice of America and the BBC will be hit. Recently, secret hearings were held in the Duma with the participation of the head of the FSB, to which all deputies were forbidden to bring any gadgets with audio or video recording functions, including mobile phones. According to my sources, it was about how to limit the influence on the situation in Russia not only from non-profit organizations, but also from foreign media.

What about freedom of movement? Are the Russian parliamentarians ready for the complete closure of the border?

“I don't think it's going to be that tough. It is enough to wait for another drop in oil prices - and the Russians will not have any freedom of movement simply because they will not have money to travel. The elite will go abroad - just as it was in the 1990s.

- And you will again have "dissidents» in the sense in which they existed in the USSR?

— There are already “dissidents” in Russia practically in the classical sense. Only now people are not hidden in psychiatric hospitals for anti-Soviet propaganda.

- For example, Putin's main opponent, Alexei Navalny, is he already a dissident?

Navalny is a mysterious figure. To be honest, I don’t know which of the Kremlin towers is behind it…

— Do you mean the interest groups among the Russian authorities?

- Yes. Now, as before, two groups are the most influential - "liberals" and "siloviki". The first is Dmitry Medvedev's conventionally liberal clan. The second is a conditionally power clan of Igor Sechin. There are several other less influential "sub-clans" who constantly gnaw at each other in the "spider jar" day and night.

- And you assume that Navalny-Kremlin project of one of these clans?

No, I didn't mean to say that. About the "Kremlin towers" I, of course, speak with irony. I think that as long as this government needs Navalny, he will not become a dissident in the classical sense. He will not be put away in a "psychiatric hospital" - as you can see, as long as they allow him to do what he does. Apparently, it is beneficial for someone in power to have such a person as Alexei Navalny exist. But I do not want to say that he works on the order of the authorities.

I think that one of the towers of the Kremlin - and maybe all of them in turn - derives some benefit from the activities of Alexei Navalny.

And this benefit is so cunning that we, people far from the Kremlin battlements, cannot even guess about it. On the other hand, one must understand that Navalny's brother, who is in prison, is a hostage of the Russian authorities. Yes, and Alexei himself is constantly under the gun of some madmen.

- In 2013, you said that a new trend appeared on Russian television-Mystic. Do crazy people come from there?

- Now the fashion for mysticism has already passed. She remained on several channels, but until recently she set the tone for both the “first” and the “second” and even on my already former and once native NTV. But now mysticism is no longer so addicted. Time has changed - TV people have other topics with which you can scare and intrigue the viewer. Other themes appeared to keep the viewer in his fist and play on his feelings.

Four years ago it was very fashionable: many channels went into mysticism: the mystical TV3, TNT and even Ren-TV, which turned into a lair of "little green men". One of them is Igor Prokopenko with the Military Secret program. It's such " green man”, which does not get out of the air of Ren-TV at all: in the same program, he talks about how the West is rotten and how from day to day this same rotten West will come to Russia and destroy everything in it with its power.

How will the West reach us if it is "rotten"? I don't understand!

And after the “little green man” Prokopenko, another program begins about how the Jewish Masons, with the help of aliens, captured the White House in Washington and are now trying to take over the whole world from there ...

But people love it! Remember, in 2012 Andrey Loshak released mockumentary “Russia. Full eclipse» ? Then a huge number of people - in all seriousness!- discussed the fantasies of Loshak and his team as if it were real story. Why do Russians so easily believe even in the most absurd products that are initially created as a joke?

- When I come to the regions, they often ask me: “Pavel, is the show of psychics on TV true?”. I answer no. It's all fiction from the first to the last word! As a broadcaster, I know this! And people from the outback who ask me about psychics on Russian TV still say "we don't believe you." Here are Malakhov's people, for example, it's true. Sometimes they are paid, sometimes they are persuaded, sometimes they are intimidated. It also happens that by force, cunning and deceit they are dragged into the studio.

I work on TV, and my relatives in the provinces still say they can't believe that the psychic show is fake.

Just like with the show of psychics, it was with Loshak's film. This was the pinnacle of banter! It was an absolutely fantastic story! But people believed even in such a mega-fake, in which not a single word was pronounced seriously by the filmmakers and its heroes - only the realization was serious. And this is the main secret of success. Approximately the same, very high quality, now a huge number of Russian TV channels make propaganda programs.

- Only now they are called not "mystical", but "analytical" and "news"?

- Exactly. On the example of "Russia. Full eclipse." you see the power of television. People believed in all this - and it is absolutely impossible for them to explain that this is all fake. Andrei Loshak masterfully brought to the point of complete absurdity what is called "hyperbolization" in journalism. How was it before? "Everything that is written in the newspaper is true." This is the Soviet principle of thinking and trusting means mass media and propaganda. Propaganda! In the Soviet Union, after all, there was no concept of "media", there were only "SMIP". Everything that was printed in the newspapers was perceived as the ultimate truth. Only in this way - and nothing else! The history of Soviet newspapers was transferred to modern Russian television: if something was shown on TV, then it is true.

— But there is other journalism, including in Belarus. I know that you were friends with the founder of the Charter-97 website Oleg Bebenin, who was a man who looked differently at the role of the media and journalism.

- Oleg really never cared about what is happening in Belarus - which he proved with his life ... and death.

Was there a possible other outcome?

— It seems to me that now it is not very correct to discuss the issue in this vein. Still, Oleg was killed - and now what can we say about other scenarios? The incredible cruelty of the Belarusian authorities on December 19, 2010 and everything that followed the events of that night - arrests, prisons, broken legs, arms, broken skulls, broken destinies - is a logical continuation of what happened to Oleg in the fall of 2010, when he was killed in the country.

I don't want to say whether another outcome was possible, but I can say for sure that it all started with his murder.

Almost all my friends from Belarus are now political refugees.

Almost all of my Belarusian friends from opposition circles have become emigrants and are forced to live outside the country: Khalezin and Kolyada in London, Radina, Bondarenko and Sannikov in Warsaw. The only one who remained in Minsk on principle is Irina Khalip. But in general, living without knowing whether you will ever be able to return to your homeland is, of course, a very serious and difficult test.

- A similar experience was experienced by people who were forced to flee the USSR for political reasons.- the same Kuznetsov, about whom you spoke today. Was there a moment in your life when the history of Soviet persecution turned for you from a “dead » , book, history in "live» really perceptible?

- For me, such a wake-up call was the first visit to Minsk as an NTV correspondent. It was 2000, and before moving to Belarus, I never thought that the Stalinist past was so close: this “scoop” around, rudeness in stores, some completely wild fear of administrators in kindergarten who were afraid to take garden of my children because they heard that I work for NTV. "We love you so much, but please go to another kindergarten ik".

My wife somehow had a collection of crosswords with her and she began to solve it while she was waiting for someone in the center of Minsk. So the tihar-stomper looked at her in a crossword puzzle over his shoulder and asked, “What are you writing down here?”. I saw that it was a crossword puzzle and fell through the asphalt.

Then there was my deportation. When all this was happening, I realized for the first time that the USSR had not disappeared anywhere, that all this could return in one second, at the click of a finger.

Was it different in Russia?

- Still, by 2000 in Russia for several years there was a system that, although with great exaggeration, could still be called democratic. Yeltsin's rule from 1993 to 1999 (even though things were really, really bad in the economy) was the beginning of democracy in Russia, the first building blocks of a slowly building but still democratic society.

There is a very good story that Borya Nemtsov told me. At some point, Yeltsin chose him as his successor and appointed him "crown prince." Borya told how every week he went to Yeltsin's dacha several times a week, and there Boris Nikolayevich, as they say, "trained" Boris Yefimovich. Yeltsin brought Nemtsov up to date: he told and showed what it means to be president.

And so, on one of these visits, Yeltsin and Nemtsov were sitting in the living room and watching the Vremya program on ORT on TV. The channel then belonged to Boris Berezovsky, who was at war with Yeltsin. Sergey Dorenko appears on the screen. And for about an hour - from the first to the last second - Dorenko said what a scoundrel, sick, alcoholic Yeltsin was, what a bad president he was, how he ruined everything in the country ...

According to Nemtsov, that evening on ORT, Yeltsin had "both in the tail and in the mane."

At first, one by one, all the households, including his wife and daughters, began to get out of the TV room. Then they all ran away. Only Nemtsov and Yeltsin remained. Nemtsov told how he looked at Boris Nikolaevich, and he sat in front of the TV and silently poured blood. His face grew redder and redder - and soon became red like a tomato.

Nemtsov huddled on the sofa, waiting for the broadcast to end, and Yeltsin to pick up the phone, call "where necessary" and after the broadcast at the television center in Ostankino, Dorenko would be hanged on one pole, and Berezovsky on the other. According to Nemtsov, Yeltsin "could have had a cigarette" when the program ended. He sat filled with rage. He sat for five minutes. Silent. And then he walked away a little, looked at Nemtsov with bloodshot eyes and said...

"Well, let's go drink tea."

What is the story about? The fact that no matter how Yeltsin is watered, no matter what they say about him now as a president, he had a principled position regarding freedom of speech. This was confirmed to me by Viktor Stepanovich Chernomyrdin, who was extremely sincere in those stories that he wanted to share. He told one of them when I was filming the documentary film “Stepanych” about him.

Once the transfer of "Dolls" brought Chernomyrdin so that he was beside himself with anger. At one of the meetings, he turned to Yeltsin, saying, just look at what the "Dolls" are doing: "this is no longer political satire, these are some personal insults, let's close this program to hell!". Boris Nikolaevich replied to this

"I endure and you endure."

Yeltsin was a native of the Soviet Union and almost all his life he was forced to “keep his mouth shut” and obey the will of the party until he became president. Perhaps that is why it was important for him that, along with the fall of communism, people in Russia finally receive the unconditional right to say whatever they think. I see what is happening both in our country and in your country.

But I hope that both you and I will finally live to see the time when, without any reservations, both Belarusians and Russians will have the right to say whatever they think.

(09/28/1974 Zakamensk, Buryat ASSR) .

Journalist, TV presenter.

Graduated from the Faculty of Journalism of the Voronezh State University in 1996

From 1992 - 1998 he worked at the Voronezh State Broadcasting Company. He went from a freelance intern to the host and head of the Voronezh News program.

From 1998 to 2001 - freelance correspondent for NTV in Central Russia.

From 2001 to 2003 - correspondent and director of the NTV representative office in the Republic of Belarus.

From 2003 to 2004 - correspondent for the program "The Other Day".

From 2004 to 2005 - correspondent for the program "Today".

From 2005 to 2007 - a correspondent for the "Maximum Program", from 2007 to 2009 - a correspondent for the "Main Hero" program, from 2009 to 2010 he worked in the "Maximum Presents" series.

From 2010 to 2011, author and host of the talk show The Last Word. Many episodes of this program became winners of various television competitions in 2011. In particular: Award of the Ministry of Internal Affairs "Shield and Feather", TV contest "Unity", "Media Against Corruption".

In 2011 he won the prize of the Union of Journalists of Russia for the documentary film about V.S. Chernomyrdin "Stepanych"

Continuation of the conversation >>>. Pavel Selin talks about the “post-Belarusian” period of work on NTV, tightening the screws, his films about Shevchuk and Chernomyrdin, a seminar in Voronezh, and that today he is happy to work on a channel that has no censorship.

Return

“Working with Parfenov is my greatest pride”

I returned to Russia. The most important post-Belarusian period is, of course, Parfyonov's year and a half in Namedni. I worked for the program until it was shut down in 2004.

“The other day” appeared on NTV just during the period of my work in Belarus. Once or twice a month I made stories for Parfenov. Almost all Eastern Europe was on me. I made 10 or 15 stories. This is a lot for the Namedni. Especially for an author who does not live permanently in Moscow. It so happened that none of the corset's correspondents made as many stories for Parfyonov's program as I did.

I was torn between two editions. My main job was to make news. And "The Other Day" was a kind of journalistic hobby. It has always been very difficult, associated with terrible energy and physical costs, but it was great.

Working in Parfenov's program, I felt like in 1993, when I was sitting in a Voronezh hostel, watching NTV spellbound and dreaming of working on television. Being already the director of the NTV bureau in Minsk, I could not even imagine that someday I would work in a team headed by Kolya Kartozia. Then he becomes my close friend. The fact that I was able to work with such an incredible person as Parfenov in two of his projects is, of course, my greatest pride. Most recently - a year ago - I made several stories in his Parfyonov project on the Dozhd TV channel. But, unfortunately, this project also ended ...

Before the closure of Namedni, when I was already working in Moscow, it was a time of absolute happiness. I was no longer attached to Minsk, I did not have to work out the news dues. I could deal exclusively with stories for the soul. And "The other day" - it has always been for the soul. To my incredible happiness and surprise, I became a regular contributor to Parfenov.

In just two and a half years of my work in this project, I made about 20 stories. Five of them became the "Best stories of the issue." To make the best story in the release of "The Other Day" is a complete space. Incredibly powerful authors worked alongside me, such as Lobkov, Loshak, Varentsova, Rogalenkov and many others, with whom it was incredibly difficult for me at that time to compete.

When the Parfyonov program was closed, I worked for some time in the news. I spent the entire first “orange revolution” in Kyiv, making news from the first Maidan. We worked on a rotational basis. Two weeks there, two in Moscow. And then, with the "Maximum Program", the directorate of prime broadcasting of NTV appeared, which was headed by the former editor-in-chief of "Namedni" Kolya Kartozia.

Somehow we tried to expose a pseudo-Orthodox sect. We lived in ambush for half a year, trying to track down the main thing - Father Cyprian. We initially misbehaved, which is why we were cut off all legal ways to this sect. There is a video where I, in desperation, decided to "soar" over them. They rented a whole house in Sergiev Posad, surrounded by a huge fence, through which it was impossible to look through. We drove a crane to their estate, and together with the operator climbed into the cradle. And from there, in the style of Gleb Zheglov, I shouted: “And now - Father Cyprian! I said - Cyprian!!!".

In the "Maximum Program" I worked for one television season. After that, I made two films in the Russian Sensations cycle, and then there was another very important project in my life - “ Main character».

"Main character"

“Protagonist” is stories of different subjects in the genre of “special reportage”. My main pride in the "Protagonist" is, of course, the story about Shevchuk. We shot him for a whole year, this is one of the few big TV stories about him that have ever appeared on federal TV channels at all; It's not clear at this time when this story will be released. I also managed to make large portrait essays about Garmash, Nemtsov, and Bukovsky. And also - detective story about the life and death of the Soviet actor Boris Sichkin, who played Buba Kastorsky in films about the elusive avengers, a story about a fantastic heroine with an incredibly tragic fate, Sylvia Kristel, performer leading role in the acclaimed film "Emmanuelle".

Pavel Selin speaking at journalism faculty at VSU

At the seminar in Voronezh, I will just be showing my stories from the “Protagonist”. I will show a series of stories that show a different approach to the special report genre. In most cases, I choose this topic for my seminars, because special rap is a compilation form of the entire news process. The special rap has everything: news, analytics, and documentaries. According to the outset, the dramaturgy of the special rap is a kind of mini-genre of a documentary film. It has everything a documentary should have: composition, suspense, undirected, live moments and more...

Using this genre as an example, I will not try to teach anyone - in such a short time it is impossible, I will try to tell the story of my mistakes. This will be the story of what I personally burned myself. There are many things I would do differently now. I have a number of very clear examples.

“My “Last Word” has become the last”

The talk show lasted only a year and a month. At first, The Last Word was advertised as an investigative program. But already the pilot release of this program showed that the existence of a truly investigative talk show in our country, even then, in 2010, was impossible. The pilot release was about the case of Major Evsyukov, who killed two people and wounded several. We conducted an incredible investigation that lasted more than one month, and completely reconstructed the whole story, from the first second to the tragic denouement. We discovered that no one before or since spoke about this case. But this pilot issue was banned from showing. The authorities said: “Old men, our police, of course, are bad, but we have only one. Let's not show this program."

And there were several such programs in the talk show "The Last Word". A program about the growing nationalism in society, about the events on Bolotnaya Square was banned. The issue about Bolotnaya Square has actually become, I beg your pardon for the tautology, "the last word." He became the last point, which, in fact, decided the fate of this program.

There were incidental situations. We recorded a program about corruption, where the main character was the mayor of the city of Serpukhov near Moscow, Shestun. He uncovered a scheme of underground casinos, which were protected by the prosecutor's office near Moscow. We received an order to cut Shestun out of the transmission. And around him is the whole program. I no longer remember what we did, it seems that we simply did not air this program, put some kind of replay.

There were several good purely investigative issues. For example, about a poisoner who killed people in Moscow trains. He poured psychotropic substances into their drinks to rob them, and people died. He has over 20 lives to his credit. And I had with him direct connection from Butyrka prison! One of my favorite movies is Natural Born Killers. The story with this inclusion from prison was an absolutely exact repetition of the plot of this film.

There were releases with which I am absolutely dissatisfied, but they are in the minority. There are episodes that, it seems to me, are absolutely breakthrough, like a program dedicated to corruption in the army and the traffic police. We have accomplished the impossible. We have made a program-investigation of the death of Magnitsky! A full investigation with a reconstruction of how he was driven to death in prison.

Then the talk show was reformatted. From a purely investigative program, from what we were able to do at first, it became a "program of popular anger." Against corruption, against the unfair attitude of officials towards people, and so on.

Naturally, such a program on NTV could not last long. The situation in the country changed dramatically and very quickly. And, of course, it all ended with Bolotnaya Square. As soon as the events on Bolotnaya Square took place, the presidential administration realized that this whole liberal shop should be covered up.

And just the first program that was closed by an unspoken order from the Kremlin was my “Last Word”. This was the beginning of the tightening of the screws.

For another six months, I worked as an editor-in-chief and co-host on the NTVshniki program. We lasted as long as we could. In the summer of 2012, the entire liberal part of NTV was almost completely destroyed. These are the programs “NTV-shniks”, “Last word”, “Profession reporter” and others. They were all closed and people fired. In the personnel department, they told me a wonderful phrase: "Pavel, there is no more work for you on the channel."

Today

“I am happy that in our time I can work on the channel without censorship”

I went into absolutely free swimming. Today my main job is the RTVi channel. Russian-language American television, headquartered in New York. The channel broadcasts to the USA, Germany, Israel. They see him in the Baltic States, Ukraine, Belarus, Georgia ...

I run two programs. Megapolis is a weekly program about the events in Moscow during the week. And the socio-political talk show "Abroad" about issues and problems that interest our audience abroad (dual citizenship, international marriages, etc.). Both programs are weekly.

All this year I have been making documentaries for RTVi and the Rossiya channel. Two have already aired. These are the film "Medicine for the Elite" and "Team" about the Russian national football team (both were shown on "Russia"). Now another film is being prepared dedicated to the 40th anniversary of the victory of Vietnam in the war with the Americans. We have been working on this film for a very long time. Filming was carried out in Vietnam, America, Russia. Very serious work... And besides that, now I am preparing several projects for RTVi.

RTVi for me is one of the few chances to stay in the profession. Work on a channel where there is no censorship, where you don’t have to talk about “Ukrofascists”, about the “punitive” operation in Ukraine, about everything that is now on federal channels in Russia. I was just lucky to work on such a Russian-language television in our time.

“Life has changed so dramatically around us that now it should be a different movie.”

In 2007, I started making a documentary about Shevchuk, the leader of the DDT group. A film about Shevchuk was conceived as a film about Russia. I want to use Shevchuk as an example, with his help, as if through his eyes, to look at how our country is changing.

The situation around my hero is changing rapidly. I watch with horror how the country is changing. If earlier I still shot more of a biographical film: here is Yura on stage, here he is at a rehearsal, here he is acting in films, wandering around churches, now life has changed so dramatically around him, and around all of us, that now it must be a completely different movie. About the catastrophically changed circumstances around my main character, me, and around all of us.

Filming has slowed down a little. I'm sure we'll finish it. If we make a film by 2017, it will be great: two five-year plans in the life of the country, DDT and Shevchuk. There is already a title for the film: "Yura the Musician". And the subtitle: "Ten"!

The main thing, of course, is that Shevchuk himself wants us to complete the film. We have very a good relationship, we call back, periodically talk about where the country is going. He is now going through a very difficult period because of everything that is happening with Ukraine. It's very, very difficult for him right now. And the film is still slowing down, perhaps due to the fact that he now does not want to exacerbate an already very serious situation with his some careless word. And I don't want to put pressure on him, of course. But I hope it won't be long and we will continue very soon.

Photo by Ilya Kukolev, Sergey Yatsky
and from the personal archive of Pavel Selin

Russian journalist and TV presenter.

The childhood of Pavel Selin

Pavel Viktorovich Selin was born in a small town on the border with Mongolia in a military family: a foreman of a tank company and head of a garrison bakery. I had to live literally in the field, but soon my parents moved to the Belgorod region, and after graduating from school Paul entered the Faculty of Journalism of the Voronezh State University.

The creative path of Pavel Selin

As a second year student, Paul got on local television - at first he worked as a cameraman, freelance editor, correspondent. Soon he began to collaborate with channels RTR And TSN.

In 1997, the journalist was invited to NTV act as a freelance correspondent. In 2001, he received the post of director of the Belarusian Bureau NTV, but due to a conflict with the authorities (with the president of the country Lukashenka) Celine was deported.

In the capital Paul made stories for programs "The other day" , "Today" , "Max Program" , "Russian sensations". In 2007 he became a documentary correspondent "Main character" .

- In the "Protagonist", unlike the program "Maximum", where I worked, we practically do not use a hidden camera. It happens in the most extreme cases. And only when we know that our filming can be evidence in court. For example, when we are not allowed into some forbidden territory, where something is violated, where something is wrong. Such shootings are a confirmation of our journalistic correctness.

For example, when one of the deputies of the Perm region raped a teenager, a terrible scandal arose, and in order to hide from justice, the “servant of the people” went to the hospital under a plausible pretext. But Pavel Selin and his assistants, armed with a hidden camera and white coats bought at the Medtekhnika store, entered the ward and secretly recorded a conversation with a pedophile.

The journalist is sure that in such situations he acts according to his conscience, because if you are completely honest with the latest scoundrel, then you also have the right to such a journalistic bluff.

Action-packed videos - a strong point Pavel Selin. He was a member of the Masonic lodge, crossed the border with smugglers, ran away from gypsy drug lords and went where the layman was forbidden to enter.

Pavel Selin married to a program producer "Maximum" they have twin boys. What the journalist really regrets is that he sees children no more than twice a week.

November 27, 2010 on the channel NTV new talk show starts "The last word", hosted by Pavel Selin. This time the investigation will be conducted in the studio, in front of TV viewers.

The last word is what precedes the verdict. But we are not a court, but an investigative talk show. Our task is not to condemn, but to help the viewer to thoroughly understand in a high-profile case. It is not simple. Victims, eyewitnesses, experts, accused - everyone has their own truth. To convey it, to speak with the last word - all participants of the program will have such an opportunity. And our task - if possible - is to put an end to this matter, i.e. say your last word.

On December 1, Voronezh will host a master class by well-known journalist and TV presenter Pavel Selin on the topic “Television special report. Practical Tips". A graduate of the Faculty of Journalism of the Voronezh State University has been working on television for over 20 years. He was a correspondent for the programs "The Other Day", "Today", "Program Maximum", "Russian Sensations", "Protagonist", editor-in-chief and co-host of the NTVshniki talk show, author and host of the Last Word talk show. The releases of this program have become winners of various television competitions. Celine is the author of several documentaries. Thanks to the documentary about Chernomyrdin “Stepanych. Film-Testament" won the prize of the Union of Journalists of Russia. He is currently — host of the Megapolis program and the talk show Abroad on RTVi. We decided that the arrival of a journalist of this level in the city is a good opportunity to talk about Russian television, freedom of speech and the country in general. Read in the first part of our interview with Pavel Selin about how he dreamed of working for NTV, and then became the director of the bureau in Belarus, about the incredible journalistic success - working for "Namedni", and about what they are with Lukashenka each othertired.

Carier start

Miracle in three letters

It was probably November. We sat with my friends, we had a "circle of the chosen" of five or seven people, with my classmate friend in the dorm room, as I remember now at 40a Kholzunova. He had the only black-and-white Rubin in the entire hostel, through which we watched an absolutely incredible miracle of three letters - NTV. I sat with my mouth open, completely stunned. I could not even imagine that someday I would be able to work with these people - with Tanya Mitkova, with Mikhail Osokin, let alone be close - to work, to go on the air.

I assembled a team of journalism students and we began to make an absolutely fantastic and stupid program on Voronezh television, which was called "Channel Seven". We shot stories for a forty-minute program for a whole year. It was my first experience.

And then I came to practice at the All-Russian State Television and Radio Broadcasting Company. At first he was an ordinary news correspondent, then he became a presenter. For some time he was even the head of the news department. And then my close friend, cameraman Oleg Zolotarev, and I began to work as freelancers: we made stories for various television companies, but mainly for NTV.

In order to work on federal television, which we dreamed of, it was necessary to find professional equipment somewhere - "betakams". At that time, Voronezh TV channels were filming on "vekhaeski". And at the first opportunity, as soon as television appeared in the city, working on professional equipment that did not belong to the All-Russian State Television and Radio Broadcasting Company, Oleg and I immediately went there. It was the TV company Vitok. It was created by Alexander Andreevich Umnov. This is a very important figure in my life.

Unique "Voronezh freelancers"

Probably in 1998, we began to work only with NTV. At the same time, a “mini-unique creative team” called “Voronezh freelancers” appeared, as they said about us. They said about NTVshnikov - "a unique creative team", but we had such a "mini".

It seems to me that we were absolute champions among all the then NTV stringers. The work was very difficult, associated with health problems .... We worked in an absolutely incredible geographical space, there were practically no houses. We made stories from Voronezh, Belgorod, Kursk, Oryol, Tambov and Saratov regions. Filmed stories about the sunken submarine "Kursk", for example.

We argued with the director of the NTV corset, Yura Antropov, that in Voronezh someday there will definitely be a correspondent of the TV channel. He argued that such a point would never appear due to the geographical location of the city. Like, if something interesting happens to us, you can always take a plane and fly very quickly from Moscow. The bureau is needed, he thought, in Rostov or Samara.

Together with Oleg Zolotarev and Yura Lesnykh (this is our driver, sound engineer and assistant in one person) we proved that the bureau is not only needed, but it will be. We argued over a case of cognac. Antropov still owes me ( laughs - approx. website). But I forgave him.

Belarusian period

“I bored Lukashenka with my stories, he bored me with everyone else”

In the winter of the early 2000s, NTV began rotating correspondents. On January 4 or 5, 2001, the head of the corset called me and offered me to go as a correspondent to Stavropol. I agreed. He asked to wait a while. He called back two hours later: “Would you like to head the bureau in Minsk?” I say: "Well, let's go to Minsk." And he joked: “If you call back in a couple of hours, it will probably already be Berlin.”

Of course, I agreed - after all, it was a serious growth. In Voronezh I was a stringer. And in Minsk - already the director of the bureau. It was very important for me that a very good correspondent Olya Chernova remained in Voronezh instead of me. In my opinion, Olya is one of the best correspondents for the NTV corset.

And I went to Minsk, where I worked for two and a half years. I constantly made stories about what was happening in Belarus. Now all this is happening in Russia. All these opposition rallies, the destruction of freedom of speech, the closure of newspapers, radio channels, the arrests of journalists and opposition figures, putting people behind bars. But then it was in Minsk, it was happening before my eyes. And I, of course, conscientiously covered all this. And the hero of my novel, Alexander Grigoryevich Lukashenko, did not like this very much. And he constantly, at every opportunity, bonfired me in front of everyone. He once devoted 15 minutes to me during his presidential address to Parliament. He saw me in the hall, and he suffered. He is quite an interesting person with a rich and diverse inner world.

In June 2003, I was safely expelled from the country for my stories from Minsk. Alexander Grigorievich and I have already managed to get bored with each other. I told him with my stories. And he to me - to everyone else. By that time, I had accumulated several official warnings from the Belarusian Foreign Ministry, and two or three of them were oral. They kept giving me verbal Chinese warnings all the time. And then there was one written, and after it the second, it seems that it was already the last.

The funeral of Vasily Grigorievich Bykov was the last straw. This is a classic of Belarusian literature. He was in opposition. Because of politics, Lukashenka emigrated from Belarus. And it so happened that he came to his homeland to solve some domestic issues and died. There was an orgy at his funeral. The flag was torn from the coffin. And when people carried the coffin in their arms, a monstrous traffic jam was organized. I talked about all this in my story, and, of course, this was the last straw. They sent me out within 24 hours.

Deportation: "Take cognac and get out of here quickly"

A funny story came out with my deportation.

I started being followed. The car of the Belarusian KGB was on duty at the bureau, at the house, followed me around the city. It is good that at that moment my family was not in Minsk. It was summer, and the wife took the children to Stary Oskol to their parents. I have twins, that year they were supposed to go to the first grade.

I owed my colleagues from the Vesti bureau of the Russian TV Magarych. These are normal human relationships. If your colleagues give you a camera, you have to buy a bottle of cognac. There was a completely terrible leapfrog, my film crew left to drive material to Moscow, I was left without a camera, and I had to record a stand-up. And the guys from Vesti gave me their camera.

I went into a small shop next to the NTV office in Minsk. There was a queue behind me. I handed the money to the saleswoman and said: "Give me, please, a bottle of that cognac" and then my cell phone rang. The call rang as soon as the story about Bykov's funeral went on the air. For the first time I saw a mysterious inscription on the screen, I had never seen such a thing on Belarusian mobile phones before: “Unknown subscriber”. I picked up the phone and for about five minutes from the receiver I heard just a wild cry and a mate: “That's it, you, such and such, jumped! We will deport you!"

Somewhere in the fifth minute, I managed to interrupt this person and ask: “Who are you?”. He replied: "This is Minister of the Interior Naumov." And then, of course, I broke through. I answered him about as much as he told me. I said everything I think about him, about Lukashenka, about their regime, about freedom of speech and so on. In general, it was a masculine, very tough conversation, with obscenities, with shouts from both sides. We told each other everything we think.

And after a while I felt that I was standing in the store in splendid isolation. There is no one around me. No queue for me, no saleswoman. And the text on the phone was like this: “Ah, are you the Minister of the Interior? Fuck you, Minister of the Interior! And that's it, I'm standing alone. I say, "Hey, somebody. Give me cognac." A saleswoman, pale with fear, appears and says: “Please take some cognac and get out of here as quickly as possible.”

On this day, I had to make a story for “Namedni” about how the oppositional Belarusian press gets into the country through various cordons. We filmed people carrying the Novinki newspaper in double-bottomed suitcases. “News” in Minsk is the same as “Tenyok” in Voronezh. Some police official called me and said a fantastic phrase: "Pavel Viktorovich, a decision has been made on your voluntary deportation." At first I thought she was joking. Then I feel no. I say: "Well, since you have made a decision about my voluntary deportation, then I will voluntarily be deported on the same day. I decided not to give them any gifts in the form of refusing to leave.

On the same day, my wife was returning by train from Voronezh. She didn't know anything. I met her at the train station with a bouquet of flowers and two TV cameras. Sveta, in her usual manner, joked: “Well, the flowers are understandable. Why did you bring cameras? I tell her: “Mother, you will laugh, but we will be deported.” Her: “Oh, great. I felt it." On the same day we took tickets and left.

At the station I was seen off by 150-200 people. The entire platform was filled with friends. They gave me a farewell with gifts, flowers and champagne. Along the entire perimeter were “tramplings” - policemen in civilian clothes.

There was a danger that the Belarusian authorities could arrange some kind of provocation. Shortly before this, the son of the former Prime Minister of Belarus, who went into opposition, was either one or two cartridges thrown into the trunk while crossing the border. He was put in jail for several years. I could have had the same nasty story. This unpleasant expectation of a set-up persisted to the last.

This story still haunts me. Some of the people who saw me off at the station then are no longer alive. Over the years, they were killed precisely because of opposition activities. In particular, my close friend Oleg Bebenin. Then, at the station, Oleg threw a T-shirt over my shoulders with the slogan "Territory free from Lukashism." He was killed on the eve of the most important presidential elections. After that, things got tougher. Many of my friends were forced to flee the country. If we talk about Belarus from here, it seems that everything is simple and easy there. In fact, it's a terrible, terrible situation. People are killed, they spend years in terrible, torture prisons.

I was banned from entering Belarus for five years. And exactly five years later, to the day, on June 28, 2008, I arrived in Minsk. I miss my friends, of whom I have a huge number there.

"War is war, and children are sacred"

In general, I love Minsk and Belarus very much. This is my second home. I would really like it to be a different country, to become part of Europe. Everyone says: “Belarus is so clean!”. It's not clean, it's sterile. Everything is etched there.

Belarusians are a fantastically friendly people. They are terribly unlucky with the authorities and the president. But in themselves they are incredible people, I love them very much. One of the examples. For a long time in Minsk, we could not enroll children in a kindergarten. Wherever my wife and I went, when we found out that I work for NTV, they said: “We only watch your channel, because only it tells the truth about Belarus, but we ask you very much, go to another kindergarten. We fear".

Pavel Selin with his sons

Once I got into a conversation with the head of the press service of the Belarusian Ministry of Internal Affairs. He asked me: “Why are you sad, confused like that?”. “Yes, what,” I say. “I can’t send children to kindergarten.” Him: “Do you live there?” “Well, of course,” I answer. Well, of course he knew where I live ( chuckles - approx. website). He says: “Listen, we have our departmental kindergarten not far from your house.” Out of desperation, I agreed. Kindergarten was great. But, of course, it is surprising that this issue was resolved at the level of the deputy minister.War is war, and children are sacred.

But this did not affect my relations with the Belarusian authorities. I combed them, and continued to comb them. No one said a word to me that, they say, look, we have placed your children in our police kindergarten, and you are talking about us. No, it kind of came naturally.

and from the personal archive of Pavel Selin